[Bob the (reef) Builder]

Is it possible to quaranteen a large number of fish 15 together in a 1000l system.

They could be kept apart so they don't bug each other.

Just wondering about the logistics.

If they are kept symptom free for 4 weeks is that still a properly quarantened bunch of fish?

[phat]

lol almost sounds like a trick question my only concern would be one sick fish contaminating the lot

[Bob the (reef) Builder]

No it would be copper treated so hopefully at the end of the period all trace of whitespot and other diseases are gone.

But yes i am interested in the dynamic of reinfection with multiple fish.

[phat]

me to lets wait a reply, are you only using copper or ozone to? and what salinity are you going to run at

[Zombie]

THis is gona be hard to do. In a sterile enviroment it might work but with different fish having different Immunities you will find the following scenario that might happen

Fish 1 is fine and fish 2 has whitespot virus
After 2 weeks Fish 1 becomes infected and gets whitespot.
Week 3 when fish one recovers he reinfects fish 2.

Over 4 weeks with so many fish it might work but for safety i would almost double the Qurintine tank to prevent re-infection spreading

[Regal]

Well imo it depends on what you are quarantining the fish against and what method you are using.

Whitespot is fairly easy, even more so if copper is used.(I'm not a fan of copper at all but regardless). After week one doesn't matter if the other fish still has whitespot or not once those cyst mature there is no more protection against copper for the theronts and they'll quickly kak off. So chances of infection between fish after about a week should really be low. Offcourse there are much worse nasties out there than whitespot and this would be where the trick comes in, it's never good to mix medicines so you'll have to go with something pretty broad like copper, Potassium permanganate(not great for filters), formalin (dangerous and no good for filters) or something like Metronidazole (good luck at the pharmacy with this request).

I really hate copper, I think I have lost more fish treating them with copper than what deseases itself has ever killed. Some fish are fine with it, where as others really dont handle the doses sometimes needed to kill allot of parasites etc. It is however probably the best for a broadbased treatment such as a shop holding tanks, I just dunno.

There is offcourse hyposalinity, big fan always worked for me and seems to be pretty good against most nasties, problem is it needs to be done for atleast 2 weeks kinda hard for most shops to even consider that, then there is also atleast a week needed to bring the sg up closer to reef parameters. All too often I have seen lfs's drop their sg right down to hypo, which is great for new arivals and for desease control, but not so great for the poor chap buying that fish and dumping them in his reeftank. Many would kak off pretty quickly afterwards

What are you guys currently doing wrt your holding tanks rob?

[granddog]

at the end of the day surely quarantining means "isolation to prevent the spread of infectious disease" hence 1 fish at a time?? Just MO

[Waynan]

For me the biggest question is, are these fish all from the same source, if yes then I see no problem QTing them all together, however if they are from different sources I would rather keep them separated for Quarantine. My reasoning here is that fish from the same source would all have already been exposed to the same diseases, so they are likely all infected anyway, where as if another source is added if the fish have not been exposed to the disease they will likely now get it, assuming the disease is somewhat copper tolerant...

[Baradhel]

Originally Posted by granddog

at the end of the day surely quarantining means "isolation to prevent the spread of infectious disease" hence 1 fish at a time?? Just MO

Yeah usually, though as Regal said, by having some form of medication in the water at all times you're stopping the parasites from spreading between fish because the swimming phase of the parasite is killed as it emerges. This is in the case of whitespot and velvet at least.

Alway quarantine new fish and fish that are sick. It isolates the problem and it will give the new fish some time to acclimate or settle in before having to deal with other fish who might be territorial or hungry =

[Bronty]

Originally Posted by granddog

at the end of the day surely quarantining means "isolation to prevent the spread of infectious disease" hence 1 fish at a time?? Just MO

I agree wit one fish at a time. The purpose of quarantine is to provide the fish with a "stress free" and non competitive environment for several weeks to recover from the stress it has endured from the ocean to your tank. They need to be individualy observed and treated if necessaey. It is also a time for the fish to get used to the aquariust and to learn how to feed.

[Bob the (reef) Builder]

Of course i understand that the ideal situation is to do this individually. But with a school of fish i want to add them together, and i also dont have 15 ctanks to individually treat them.

I feel that if properly medicated, the main culprits such as White spot and Oodinium should be quarantened out, but need confirmation from the man.

Where is Anthony?

[Waynan]

I believe he was away from home...

[Bob the (reef) Builder]

Thats unacceptable, he should be sitting at his computer waiting for SARKs questions with bated breath.

[Anthony Calfo]

Cheers, Bob/All

Yes, I was away again, my friends. I left for Australia shortly after getting home from IMACSA. A bit of a rush of picture collecting before the end of the year.

In short, I have to say that granddog has it right. Proper QT is isolation. One specimen per tank. There are many reasons for QT but a principal reason is to prevent the infection of other organisms. QT for a sea star, for example, is not so much for the sake of identifying or treating a sick specimen (as if we could easily medicate a sea star) as it is to prevent it from carrying pests or predators into the reef display... or simply crawling into inaccessible recesses, dying/decaying and being a burden on water quality.

The same holds true for corals and fishes. We are more concerned about preventing the infection or death of more than the one creature in QT, however much we may indeed value an individual life.

So, comparing an isolate QT versus a mass "QT"... the isolate specimen is a far safer and more sensible way to go. Few people are buying masses of fishes at one time at any rate. And few people have a display tank conditioned well enough to be able to (biologically) handle a mass influx like 15 fishes at once.

That all said, I can appreciate the desire to not have to wait 15 months to add 15 fishes to the display (presuming only 4 weeks were necessary per fish and no disease in any was expressed). As such, in the hands of a skilled aquarist... in a bare bottomed system... ideally with the use of ozone, and necessarily with a broad spectrum of meds on hand, the mass QT could be passable here. To be responsible for the life of all fishes concerned here, though, I'd still have one or two extra small tanks on hand in case one of the specimens in the bulk batch shows signs of disease (in which case it gets pulled fast to reduce the chance of others sickening).

If would be a false comfort in any case to believe that copper in the water, another med, or even the use of ozone, could fully prevent the spread of any disease. They only help reduce the numbers. Fish health and vigor play a far greater role in reducing morbidity. Strong feeding and superb water quality go a lot farther in aquarium fish health.

with kindest regards, Anth-

[Bob the (reef) Builder]

Thanks Anthony.

I was hoping that with medication I could quarantine properly in a big system, as I wanted to add them all together. Yellow tangs.

They will be going into a 5000l system and I wanted them altogether for less fighting on introduction.

Will copper not work in stopping new whitespot or velvet from starting a new cycle with the fish?

[Anthony Calfo]

hey, Rob!

I can appreciate your desire to want to add all at once to stave off aggression issues. But if that is your sole reason, we are quickly back to smaller or individual batch QT. There is going to be aggression, displays of dominance (or not) in time that have no bearing on how the fishes were introduced together, or not. All bets are off really. We see folks that add just 2 tangs to a tank that works when it should not due to conventional wisdom. We see others that have shoals that work peacefully for years until one goes berserk and slowly starts picking off the other, etc.

Of greater issue here though is the perception that copper is a proverbial silver bullet. It's not by any stretch of the imagination. Helpful... yes. But resoundingly effective? Not even close.

Copper needs to be dosed two or more times daily (bare bottomed tank... else more dosing is needed) to maintain therapeutic levels. What is therapeutic depends on the tolerance of the pathogen and the tolerance (or not... as with Centropyge, for example) of the infected fish. Even then, it is merely one of the better medicants for spots... but that is relative to so many other treatments that are so dismal. With your Zebrasoma tangs in particular, there are other large issues (such as common black-spot) that will not even be phased by copper. In short, copper is helpful, but of limited use (and more often dosed ineffectively and as such a stress).

In the big picture, if you want to isolate more than one fish, you will be far better served by employing ozone, medicated foods and frequent water changes. It's been demonstrated that a daily water change siphoning the entire bottom of the bare glass aquarium for 9 or more days will break the life cycle of principal ectoparasites. My reference for this is Gratzek and Blasiola (Fish Diseases, University of Georgia) who are two world renowned piscine pathologists. I have employed and recommended this practice countless times with very satisfactory results (greater than copper use, indeed). For many of us, we do it to prevent putting fish off of breeding cycles from the stress of medications (toxins really, in the case of copper at such borderline levels).

In summary, I am sure that copper alone will not adequately reduce the chances of diseases being expressed in a batch isolation. There are just too many concerns that copper does not address under the best application. Use it properly if you see a call for it. But otherwise depend on ozone and water changes plus exceptional conditioning (minimum three small feedings daily).

best of luck, my friend Anth-

[Bob the (reef) Builder]

Thanks Anthony for two comprehensive answers, much appreciated.

[Anthony Calfo]

My pleasure Rob Hoping this works well for you. Please keep us posted if you can. I suspect you will likely be just fine especially if the specimens come in reasonably well. Yellow tangs are rather good aquarium specimens.

One other piece of advice, particularly with the batch isolation. Add a B12 vitamin to the food from the very beginning (do you have Boyd brand Vita-chem or the like/ If not, human vitamins are fine). It is tremendously helpful for kick starting most any fishes appetite (ravenously). But never wait days for the appetite to start. Fasting fishes are less likely to eat the longer they fast. Bad cases need an injectible (needle, soluble) solution - though that works absolute magic. Either way... feed or needle, B12 is a wonder for getting fishes to feed fast and furiously and lessen the need for meds.

Best of luck, my friend

[Bob the (reef) Builder]

Another question on this topic is this, I have always told people that when adding a tang such as a Powder blue or Regal to a tank, to almost expect it to get whitespot and that if there are other tangs that they may also get a bit, but that with good food and treatment they generally will come right assuming a peaceful environment etc.

I've also said that the disease is not necessarily added by the new fish, but that white-spot will hang around a seemingly perfectly disease free tank and manifest in times of stress such as the addition of a new fish.

If I batch or singley quaranteen a fish without copper and they are perfectly non-sympomatic for thirty days, how do I know that a low level infection is not waiting to manifest itself on introduction to the stressors of a new environment.

I always thought that the copper is what wiped out the last vestiges of the disease.

My tank for instance has not seen a spot for a year or so. Can I be sure that the tank has no white spot hanging about?

Or have I been talking bull all these years, something I am willing to consider.